Author Topic: NEW Electronic Ignition Option  (Read 1641 times)

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Offline quattrodave

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Re: NEW Electronic Ignition Option
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2020, 05:37:50 PM »
Good, glad it works, my understanding is that the first magnet in the aluminium advance part fires the plug as it passes the trigger therefore opening the circuit hence the test light comes on, when the 2nd magnet passes the trigger it closes the circuit  and the test light goes out,  the distance between the 2 magnets in degrees are equivalent to the dwell angle with points.

By the way I managed to change the neighbours Morris 8 head gasket and got the car running for him yesterday so no time to sort out my system for at least another week.

Offline lumpy252

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Re: NEW Electronic Ignition Option
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2020, 06:26:23 PM »
hi yes that is the conclusion that I had reached about the dwell angle as well , so that like you say one magnet triggers on and the next triggers it off. I would however feel happier if my test lamp lit up when the left orange wired pick up was passed by the black magnet and went out when passed by the red magnet rather than working the other way around. See how you get on with timing yours. I have not been out to the bike today as we have snow here .
Have your pick ups got the in built in them ? This would make timing so much easier . With yours having a later manufacture date on them perhaps they do . Like I say I will have a small doubt in my mind as to whether the timing is spot on until I can see the test light light at the expected black magnet , but the bike runs well. Strobe test shows the advance and retard mechanism is ok . Though Iwill not go for a ride out until I am sure the timing is where it should be.
Glad you got sorted with your mates motor . Let me know if you have any ideas as to why the timing is seemingly back to front on my test light . Oh well every day is a school day .

Offline lumpy252

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Re: NEW Electronic Ignition Option
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2020, 06:42:13 PM »
Sorry that should read - Do your sensors have the test lamps in built on them , which would make it all a lot easier ?

Offline quattrodave

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Re: NEW Electronic Ignition Option
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2020, 11:35:24 AM »
Sorry no built in test lights on mine, I guess it was a cost cutting exercise removing them maybe ?, once I get mine sorted I'll update this thread with details, regards, Dave.

Offline lumpy252

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Re: NEW Electronic Ignition Option
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2020, 10:28:09 AM »
Thanks quattrodave I just need to be sure timing is correct as the xs500b has less advance on the ignition timing than the later models.So although the description in the ad says the system covers all years models it may be factory set at the I think it is 5 degrees more advanced setting for the later models.

Offline quattrodave

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Re: NEW Electronic Ignition Option
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2020, 05:40:15 PM »
Advance is controlled by the mechanical bob weights and springs so converting from points to magnetic trigger won't affect advance unless you time if differently or put in a later advance from the 76 on models.

Did you check it on both cylinders ? as I think it may need a tweek by filing one of the pickups to allow that individual pickup to move a degree or 2  either way to get it exact once the other is also exact, any thought on this ?

Even with fully electronic systems on my british bikes you can set advance to be more or less than specified by the original manufacturer by just rotating the base plate to retard or advance it once it reaches maximum electronic advance say at (usually) 5000 revs. I have 2 old Triumph Bonnevilles one is timed at 38% full advance the other at 30% full advance both use the same electronic system just set in a different position on full advance.

Offline lumpy252

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Re: NEW Electronic Ignition Option
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2020, 08:49:31 AM »
Hi quattrodave I have been reading on this site about the test light for the timing and it is now clear to me that as the test light will have a constant 12 volt supply from the ignition the light should indeed be going out at the F1 and F2 marks as I am getting. This is because the tytronic system is not powered by the coil feed wires but by a brown ignition switched (constant wire).

As for the increased advance on the later models I was under the impression that the F1 and F2 marks were scribed 5 degrees further forward on the later models ( firing points at TDC 5degrees difference)and the pick ups would need to be adjusted to sync with these. I agree about the weights on the governor springs as the springs were stronger on the later models and the governor design itself was changed.

Maximum advance is at 3700 rpm so I am seeing that the strobe is lining up with the pointer in between the two advance marks at 4000 rpm and then feel satisfied that the springs on the governor are working as they should. I did only strobe the left side as the governor springs work both sides so if one side is correct then the other must be . I am merely a keen amateur and feel sure that others can correct me if I am wrong about my assumptions.

Offline quattrodave

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Re: NEW Electronic Ignition Option
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2020, 11:21:13 AM »
Well, as for timing the other side, it depends on how accurately the Chinese manufacturer has made the base plate as the pickups should be exactly 90 degrees apart from each other however as it looks like a made to order baseplate so can we be sure they are set exactly 90 degrees apart? so I suggest you check the other cylinder and if its slightly out then you can adjust the other pickup slightly by filing the locating holes to allow a small 1 - 2 degree movement to correct the timing on that side if required as the engine will run better if the timing is exacty right on both cylinders.

That just my two-penneth as I recall the boyer systems of the late 70's where the 2 pickups which were set into the baseplate were not adjustable, on my GS1000 the timing was always a compromise as the engine heat used to cause the pickups to twist slightly on the plate and the timing was never quite the same on the 2 sets of cylinders as I guess one pickup angle was maybe 180.5 degress rather than the exact 180 degress compared to the other.

In the Yahama XS500B/C XS500E service manual the mechanical advance is shown as follows

B model -
F (firing)  mark is at 5 BTDC - initial timing at tickover (fixed advance)
advanced marks are at 35 to 41 degrees - advance starts at 2100 rpm and its fully advanced at 3700 rpm which should be between the marks at 38 degrees.
So advance in total  between 2100 to 3700 rpm is from 5 to 38 so 33 degrees advance range in total.

C model and E model
initial timing at tickover is set at 10 degrees so I assume F mark is at 10 BTDC (do not have picture of advance unit to check)
full advance is at 33 degrees so again I assume marks on mechanism are set between 30 and 36 degrees.

So it appears the later models are set at more advance initially but the mechanical unit reaches full advance earlier at 33 degrees
So the advance in total at 3700 rpm is from 10 to 33 so 23 degrees advance range in total.

Makes sense as we now know that multi valve engines typically need less advance so maybe Yamaha learnt this lesson in the early 70's with the XS500.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 11:27:10 AM by quattrodave »

Offline lumpy252

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Re: NEW Electronic Ignition Option
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2020, 03:53:05 PM »
Thanks for the insight , it does however play on the fear I had that the system was made for the bikes firing at 10 degrees BTDC rather than 5 degrees BTDC and so the mounting plate will need  to be altered to allow for more rotation , to match the pick ups correct activation point . As I am now questioning my test results my strobe has packed up and the point at which the test light goes out is not lining up with the F1 mark .
My initial euphoria at the bike starting has been dulled by the realisation that the marks on the rotors top are not perfectly in line with the magnets on my system.
See how you find the fitting process as you seem more experienced in this than I am . If the system is produced for the later models then adapting them to the earlier model might not be straight forward. The extra rotation of the pickups mounting plate would require metal to be cut away , I think. Making another base plate is an option that might work but see how you get on . You may just breeze through it . Oh well in the worst case scenario I can put it back to points and save the kit for a later model d which I have as an on going project .

Offline lumpy252

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Re: NEW Electronic Ignition Option
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2020, 11:18:36 PM »
Hi to just up date on my progress , I have been looking at the governor from my xs500d and comparing this with the one from my xs500b. The pictures will show that the advance marks are shorter in duration as Quattrodave said and  also the firing marks are further forward. If you look at the two advance marks for the left (number 1 cylinder),the marks are there on the 1977 d model but are missing from the 1975 b models governor as they would be behind the advance mechanisms bob weight pivot . Which means that I must have  been mistaken when I thought that I had seen this with my faulty strobe ,
Anyhow like I stated previously I must have been over optimistic when the bike started and assumed that all was well , The timing with the test light as part of the circuit the light goes out as the pick ups activate as the live feed is constant from the brown ignition wire ,
The base plate did need to be altered to allow for the extra clockwise rotation to change the unit to suit the earlier 1975 b model 
This throws up a new problem which is that the right cylinders pick up touches the base plates mounting screw . and leaves that cylinder about one degree too advanced of its firing mark ,
So the system is not a one size fits all but to be fair the ad did say xs500 c , it then listed all the other years but must mean that each years model has to be individually catered for in a specific order ,
My 1975 xs500 b is running now with this system though it is not prefect for this model , Let me know if anyone can point out any flaws in my thinking on this one .
 ,

Offline quattrodave

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Re: NEW Electronic Ignition Option
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2020, 04:56:52 PM »
OK, so am I missing something here you quote it being 1 degree too advanced ? but you had to move it clockwise to get more advance so do you actually mean its 1 degree too retarded ?, that would make more sense as the later advance/retard mechanism only advances to 33 degrees max and to get 38 degrees you need to move it further clockwise getting this problem.?

If its only 1 degree out that not really a problem its close enough. According to my service manual the B model was 8.5 to 1 compression (Hitachi carbs), the later C was 8.5 to 1 (mikuni BS38 carb)  and the E was 9.6 to 1 (mikuni BS 34 carb) so don't really understand why the C timing is set 5 degrees less advance on same compression ratio, this reduction of 5 degrees does make sense for the E with higher compression though.

Unfortunatly my service manual does not cover the D model but the reduction to 33 degrees advance was brought in on the C model with same compression as B but with different carbs (and I think C still had oval exhaust ports) so timing reduction related to carbs maybe?

Really need to get this system put on my bike to see if I have similar issues!

Offline lumpy252

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Re: NEW Electronic Ignition Option
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2020, 05:46:13 PM »
Hi there as my test light is going out just before the F2 mark on the lower grey wired pickup on the black magnet thatís why I say firing a shade too early on that side . I have not strobed it so the too advanced comment referred to the static timing . I agree about the c model should be firing at 5 degrees BTDC as that is what the Haynes Manual states for that model. I am constantly reassessing what is occurring here so any good ideas are welcome.
The manufacturer is not sending any feedback other than to ask for photos and when I send them I hear nothing more.
The problem is that lower pick up will not move enough to be perfectly on the F2 mark because the base plate screw is in the way , as you can see in the pic. I could well be doing this wrong but the bike runs really well like this.
Also the xs500 b has keihin carbs.

Offline quattrodave

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Re: NEW Electronic Ignition Option
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2020, 06:14:01 PM »
Use a strobe, just reviewing the post you said you had it timed up correctly between the 2 marks (35 - 41 degrees) when using the strobe, what you have done since is severly retarded the ignition by moving it further clockwise, anti clockwise advances it.

Go back to basics the left cylinder should fire on the first F mark, the second F mark is for the right cylinder its nothing to do with the left cylinder. So red magnet creates current as it passes the first pickup, if you have a light in circuit it will light up, as the second black magnet passes the first pickup the light should go out. Thats the firing/dwell for the left side.
However before the black magnet reaches the first pickup the red magnet will have triggered the right cylinder as it reaches the 2nd pickup.
You can repeat the exercise on the right cylinder with your test light moved to that trigger.

Offline quattrodave

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Re: NEW Electronic Ignition Option
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2020, 06:15:29 PM »
Carbs ,my error I typed Hitachi when I should have typed Keihin

Offline lumpy252

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Re: NEW Electronic Ignition Option
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2020, 06:44:25 PM »
Cheers quattrodave this is loads more help than I am getting from the manufacturer. So it appears my mistake is aligning the F1 and F2 marks to the black magnet rather than the red one . I will as you say go back and start again ?