Author Topic: NEW Electronic Ignition Option  (Read 2012 times)

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Offline quattrodave

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Re: NEW Electronic Ignition Option
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2020, 07:09:03 PM »
OK,

Basics the red magnet fires the ignition by opening the circuit to the coil, it passes the left cylinder pickup first which is the first F mark with the L just before it and the T after it. Thats the static setting, when you speed up the revs to 4K the timing should advance to between the 35/41 marks which are further clockwise from the F and T mark for the left cylinder, you need the strobe on the left plug to check this, then as the black magnet passes the same left pickup it closes the circuit thats the dwell on the left cylinder, however before the black magnet reaches the first pickup the red magnet will have passed the 2nd pickup for the right cylinder and fired that side by opening the circuit.

The second F mark is for the right cylinder and its 90 degrees further anticlockwise from the first F mark. Same principle again red magnet fires the right side 2nd pickup (90 decrees to the right of the first pickup, the one touching the backup screw in your photo) as it passes the pickup this should open the circuit on the right F mark, as the black magnet passes this coil it closes the circuit again at the end of the dwell. To check with a strobe on this side do it on the right plug at 4K it should be between the 35/41 marks for the right cylinder.

Ignition principle is red magnet opens circuit on both pickups and the black one closes it on both pickups, you will never be able to set timing using the blank magnet !

Note timing moves at 1/2 engine speed which is why pick ups are 90 degrees apart as the left plugs fires 180 degrees before right plug and again 540 degrees after right plug which is 90/270 degrees on the advancer.

You must have retarded the ignition by a long way in that 2nd photo with the 2nd pickup touching the screw.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 07:12:43 PM by quattrodave »

Offline lumpy252

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Re: NEW Electronic Ignition Option
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2020, 07:37:12 PM »
Thank you for this I had got the idea to time by the black magnet from the instructions that came with the system where number six says to align the orange wired pick up with the T of Tytronic pointing at the black magnet.
The theory part I am familiar with for points but this is my first experience of installing an electronic system. What you say makes sense of course and I appreciate your time .

Offline quattrodave

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Re: NEW Electronic Ignition Option
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2020, 07:41:52 PM »
Just looked at them, the instruction point 6 is to ensure you get the trigger wheel in the correct place to start with, otherwise it will be 180 degrees out, its not for actually doing the precise timing !

Offline lumpy252

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Re: NEW Electronic Ignition Option
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2020, 07:48:17 PM »
This is what my mistake is then thanks a lot .

Offline quattrodave

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Re: NEW Electronic Ignition Option
« Reply #34 on: February 29, 2020, 09:21:07 PM »
So finally got around to fitting the Trtronic ignition system today to my American import XS500B. I purchased a later type ignition advancer to use as mine had the American early type with springs attached to the nose (371 type). I got a later NOS 2F1-81653-10 type from Ebay for just under 30. Advance assumed to be 5 to 38 degrees advance on the original 371 unit.

I can confirm that the trtronic alloy advance part fits the 2FI without any machining but it would need a chamfer machining on the lower inner inside diameter to fit on the early 371 advancer, it fit perfect on the 2F1 advancer just a twist to remove the old metal unit and keep the weights out whilst sliding on the trtronic part, no need to remove the bob weights or springs to do this. Advance assumed to be 10 to 33 degrees on the 2F1 unit. Certainly looks to be less overall advance than the early unit which is better for a 4 valve engine.

Now the timing , yep there is a problem it looks like the manufacturer has cut the slots in the alloy advance unit around 20 to 25 degrees out which is why you had the problem with the back plate needing to be rotated so far clockwise to get the timing sorted.
Rather than file the screw slots and enlarge the timing window slot in the alloy backplate I redrilled all 4 pickup 2mm holes to be approx 22 degrees further around the plate (essentially moving both pickups 22 degrees to the right on the plate). Yes the right hand cylinder pickup is now next to the bottom mounting screw so I used a button/mushroom head hex 6mm bolt to secure the plate with a small washer it just touched the pickup plastic edge without damaging it and still holds the plate securely.

I did the timing with a light bulb in circuit to earth from condenser take off to get it firing statically at the 10 degree mark first on the left and then on the right cylinder. I had to move the right pickup slightly to get it correct in relation to the left, I'd factored this in when I redrilled the pickup plate mounting holes allowing a 2 to 3 degree movement advance/retard.

So the bike fires up,  ticks over OK and revs OK, need to take it for a spin and also to do the timing at full advance with a strobe but unfortunatly my 35 year old strobe is playing up so may have to get another first.

So should I get back to Trtronic and advise that the advance alloy part is being machined 20 to 25 degrees out and also to ask them for another new backplate and un machined advance part so I can get it set how it should be. Or I can just leave it as its now working Okk on mine but if anyone else purchases one they will have the same problem.

So the problem with this ignition system is that the alloy advance part with the magnets is machined incorrectly with the slots at the wrong location in relation to the magnets thats why it does not quite fit as intended.

Offline lumpy252

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Re: NEW Electronic Ignition Option
« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2020, 10:35:53 AM »
Thank you for the update . You are the first person I know to have successfully fitted this system to this bike ,so well done .For myself I will be reinstalling the original points set up .

Offline lumpy252

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Re: NEW Electronic Ignition Option
« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2020, 12:04:57 PM »
Hi again just a thought but you say your firing point is 10 degrees BTDC (as it is a 1H2 governor now) whereas the Xs500b had a 5 degree BTDC firing point.

Offline lumpy252

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Re: NEW Electronic Ignition Option
« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2020, 02:55:59 PM »
Oh yes now I see you put 2F1 stamped on the governor which could be the same firing point as Yamaha kept moving the goalposts on this. You have made great progress, good for you .

Offline quattrodave

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Re: NEW Electronic Ignition Option
« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2020, 03:00:13 PM »
Yes set the initial timing at 10 degress BTDC as thats where the mark is on the later advance unit used on the C and later models, full advance is supposed to be at 33 degrees wth this unit as opposed to 38 degrees with the 371 advance unit.

When I re installed the points during my impromptu fix to the trtronic system I did find that at the original 5 degrees advance on tickover (I was using the 371 unit with points as the other 2F1 unit had the trtronic bit installed) the bike ran much better/smoother when I advanced it a few degrees so I guess 10 BTDC is a better starting point.

So I think Yamaha probably finally got the timing correct on the C onwards models with the initial 10 degrees and 33 full advance, proof will be when I get to take it for a run with the new advancer and trtronic system fitted, otherwise I will go back to the old 371 unit but set it at an initial 10 degrees and maybe limit the overall advance otherwise at 10 degrees starting point it will go to 43 degress at full which is too much with the 371 advancer but you can limit the full advance easily on the 371 unit by bending the tabs on the unit so it can't reach full advance (some experimenting required to do this) to get the full advance back to between 33 and 38. An adjustable timing/strobe light helps so if I cant fix mine I will invest in a new one.

Offline quattrodave

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Re: NEW Electronic Ignition Option
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2020, 04:59:24 PM »
 :) Ok its been a while but just had the bike out for a 30 mile shakedown ride with the Tytronic system installed.

What can I say its much better than with points, pick up is smoother and the snatching that is common due to the 180 degree crank is much reduced insofar as I can now ride down to 2000/2500 revs and still pull away smoothly where previously anything below 3000 was snatchy. This is probably due to the fact that the timing bounce you get with points is eliminated and possibly also due to the new old stock advance unit I fitted.

It revs cleanly up to 9000 and appears to be a bit quicker getting there.

So its a  :D ;D from me for this system, just need to sort out the slow running when the engine is really hot (9 degrees out there today and the engine was still really hot after a quick blast at 70ish on dual carriageway) as although its better than it was its still trying to stall sometimes when coming to a stop from high speed (bliping the throttle and right hand down adjusting tickover screw everytime this occurs is not ideal), this I believe is another quite common problem on the XS500 with the Keihen carbs, so need to try the Mikuni BS38's I got from a later XS500c (with new inlet and airbox with rubbers I sourced to go with them) to see if that helps.

Offline lumpy252

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Re: NEW Electronic Ignition Option
« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2020, 05:34:09 PM »
Hi quattrodave glad things are going well for you. My own experience of the system meant that as the earlier governor had a later firing point the right side pick up was touching the base plate screw . So as I did not want to damage anything I reinstalled the points.
The reluctance of the engine to idle when hot is something I am familiar with. I have just fitted a dunstall style near straight through exhaust and am going to check my carbs jetting to see if this helps. Although I had an xs500d in the eighties and remember this happening then .

Offline lumpy252

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Re: NEW Electronic Ignition Option
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2020, 09:09:02 AM »
I am left with a few questions- first are we all sure that the earlier engines stamped 371 are fine to have the firing point set at the further forward 10 degrees BTDC which the later 1H2 engines had ? As I had assumed (maybe wrongly) that this was related to the higher compression ratio used on them.
Second quattrodave , you have been been left as I was with the right pickup very near to the bottom base plate screw or bolt then were you in fact aligning the F mark with the black magnet as I was to achieve this same result?
If it is all good to set the firing point to the ten degrees (or shall we say between 5 and 10 ) BTDC this would give me more room on the right pickup rather than pushing against the base plate screw and possibly damaging it .
As for the customer service aspect with the corona virus lockdown in operation and my own experiences of lack of feedback I am shall we say sceptical. Also as we have both modified the base plate this may invalidate any warranty. The company should be made aware of the design fault in the cutting of the rotor as I am left feeling that this system is a prototype.
I have seen at least one other picture of this system on this site , though still in the box. If anyone has opinions on this please share .

Offline quattrodave

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Re: NEW Electronic Ignition Option
« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2020, 11:04:15 AM »
Ignition timing at tickover is a compromise, its more important to be correct at higher revs to get optimum power and fuel consumption so in my opinion and experience with my XS500 setting the static timing at 10 degrees the engine actually runs better with the slightly more advance, with the later advancer I'm only getting 33 degrees at higher revs as opposed to 38 on the original advancer so I might be losing some power there who knows it certainly picks up Ok and runs OK up to 80ish (I will deny officially).
 
So long as the engine feels OK then it probably is, Yamaha messed about with advance and initial timing a lot with this engine and as I said previously multi valve engines typically use less advance due to their being more efficient burning fuel and in 1973 how many multi valve road engines were around ? so I guess they were learning on the job so to speak.

Yes we should really let the manufacturor know that the replacement advance rotor part is cut in the wrong place, in reality if we could get a new alluminum cut back plate as they supplied without pickups (we could put the pickups from our original on it) and an uncut advance rotor part we could set it as intended and then let them know where to put the cut out in the rotor advancer so it works correctly. As mine is working OK I prefer not to start doing this on my bike as when I moved the pickups I set them slighty closer to the rotor to avoid having the issue with the mounting screw as I used a replacement button head allen bolt to avoid it touching the pickup on the lower mounting.

The other issue is that the wire length is probably around 10 cm (4 inches) too short as on my bike following the original routing of the cable it is no longer covered by the rubber shroud as it sits just outside it. I admit I did not measure the length against the original points wiring before I put it on the bike. For reference I ran the feed wire from the brown connection for the stoplight to supply the power. I did this by making a new short 1 male into 2 female lead to connect the original stoplight and then another longer male to female lead running over the airbox and thru the shroud to take the power to the red  pickup male supply to the ignition pickups.

As you say, under developed prototype, someone got the leads length wrong (probably measured them incorrecty) and rotor cutout a number of degress out.

Offline lumpy252

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Re: NEW Electronic Ignition Option
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2020, 11:41:02 AM »
Thanks for the response, the continual development of these engines does leave an owner wondering which combination of parts and tolerances are best.  See for instance the problems some people have had with valves contacting with pistons when the later top end is put on an earlier bottom end.
The plot thickens with the tytronic ad now saying that there is one unit left after you bought the last one. So maybe they are being made to order somewhere.
On the length of the pick up wires yes the further you turn the base plate the less length you have to reach the connector block. Any how I may attempt to fit this unit to a later model xs500 I am working on. For now I am running well on contact breakers on the Xs500b (new points benefitted it no end) . So cheers it is all good experience, happy biking to you all.